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 Post subject: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 11th, 2010, 4:36 pm 
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For those that are trying to keep the stream ripper folks at bay by blocking them by media player type I noticed today that a lot of them all of a sudden are masking with the latest release of Winamp 5.57. Up to now they have been mostly using Winamp 5.0. ALL of them are coming from European countries but mostly (90% or more) are coming from Germany. I'm starting to wonder how many of these hits from Germany are from our own fellow broadcasters who steal our music and then make for themselves a very nice "free" library for their listeners.
I listened to a few stations from that part of the world the past few weeks and many of the songs abruptly cut off toward the end which leads me to believe they've had to drastically edit their songs because of crossfading, etc., from the stations they may have gotten the music from.
Hate to say this and feel this way, but that's my observation.....


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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 11th, 2010, 9:20 pm 
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.... are from our own fellow broadcasters who steal our music and then make for themselves a very nice "free" library for their listeners.


Then do these things:

(1) Make sure you actually CROSSFADE your music, even if only slightly.
(2) When using sweepers/liners/IDs, when possible crossfading these TOO over intros/outros of songs.
(3) Use something like TitleStreamBanner.pal to change your metadata every minute or so. Those using autorippers will never get a complete, full song.

REMEMBER: If someone wants to rip your stream, THEY WILL... PERIOD. If you run your station properly (including the items above) stream rippers will never get full songs. And really, when it comes down to it, would YOU listen to a station that constantly sounded like they had to massively edit their songs, or if their songs ended abruptly all the time? What would be the draw?

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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 11th, 2010, 11:08 pm 
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The Rest In Peace (RIP) program is good for stopping rippers. However, if they mask what listen agent they use, it won't help.

My station gets a ton from Germany that use Winamp 2.7 and this stops them.

http://www.shoutcaststreaming.us/whmcs/ ... pe=d&id=14

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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 7:11 am 
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Pete wrote:
broadcasters who steal our music and then make for themselves a very nice "free" library
Earth to Pete: You're a DJ, not a musician! It's not YOUR music. (Years ago, I battled stream rippers for a few months before realizing DJs are just a bunch of messengers. Anyway, imitation is the greatest form of flattery.)


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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 17th, 2010, 1:07 pm 
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You're a DJ, not a musician! It's not YOUR music.

Focus on the forest, not a tree.

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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 18th, 2010, 1:28 pm 
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Having been a real dj a long long long time ago in a place far far far away, a Station Manager, and at the same time a concert promoter in one of the world's largest cities, and now as well having several nephews who are composers I tend to have a little more respect for the folks in the music industry and feel that stealing in any form is still stealing.
I've put a lot of effort, through the years, in collecting my music and am now interested in sharing it through Internet radio for those wanting to "listen" to the type of music I like. I plan to fight, tooth and nail, those that just want to grab whatever is out there from various stations and use it for their own personal gain, not caring if it's legal or illegal.
I know it is is not my music, but I have a deep respect for the effort all those musicians and artists have made in the past, and are making now, which allows me to be able to, through my little Internet radio station, present my personality, through music, to a mass of people.
My father always taught me that it takes many trees to make a forest and once individual trees begin to disappear pretty soon you have nothing more than a new housing development. Never quite figured out what he meant but I always took it to mean that if you don't pay attention to small details, pretty soon you have something completely different than what you planned to have.


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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 18th, 2010, 1:41 pm 
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I thought in the quoted context a forest/tree comment would highlight the discussion is on thwarting stream-rippers, not music ownership.

If tree disappearance goes against forest goals there are two options:
1. Do nothing and accept the consequence
2. Intervene and solve the problem

You seem to be a #2 type of guy. I like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 4:22 am 
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Pete wrote:
use it for their own personal gain
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: If only. I get 300,000 TLH/year and have tried to squeeze just a little money from webradio ads, with zero success. There's no personal gain to this. It's a hobby like playing golf.


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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 8:40 am 
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Pete wrote:
Having been a real dj a long long long time ago in a place far far far away, a Station Manager, .....

And having too been a real DJ and worked in the terrestrial end of radio in on air, production and management, you and I BOTH know that if someone wants to record or get a copy of what you're playing, they will. I had tons of friends in the late 70s and early 80s that would record off the radio all the time. Did they ever get a full, 'quality' copy of a song? No, because people like you and me would "talk up" the intros of songs, and we'd "talk up" the outros..... we'd make sure we cross faded our songs.... we'd never let a song completely run out, wait a few seconds and then start the next.
Same rules apply here. If someone wants to rip your stream, they will. The RIP software, while great idea doesn't really solve anything. Stream rippers can 'fake' not only their IPs, but the players being used as well. Just do what you know to do... don't let those ripping your stream get full copies of songs. Talk up your intros.... have liners/sweepers/IDs play over intros/outros of songs.

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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 9:23 am 
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dj001 wrote:
If only. I get 300,000 TLH/year and have tried to squeeze just a little money from webradio ads, with zero success. There's no personal gain to this. It's a hobby like playing golf.


I'm really shocked to read that you are so willing to take hard earned money directly out of your own back pocket and just throw it to the wind and call it a hobby and in the same breath declare you can't seem to make a profit. I wish I was so financially well off, I'd probably stand on a balcony somewhere and flip the money to people below. In the case that we are discussing here there really isn't any way to ward off these rippers but we can most certainly come up with ways to make it harder for them to just break into our homes, take whatever they want, and walk away fat, dumb and happy. An example of what most of us smaller stations probably experience is let's say we have a 100 slot allocation at our streaming server and are paying $150.00 per month for that service. What happens if 30 or so of those 100 listeners are the rippers that are constantly hitting the stream. To me that works out to be around $45.00 to $50.00 a month. Gee, that's about $540.00 to $600.00 a year thrown to the wind because it's just a hobby.
I can think of so many others ways to spend $600.00 besides giving it away to folks who are out to steal from me. Like Andrew has been preaching, take every measure you can to protect yourself and your product and avoid unnecessary expenses doing so. This is just one example of those trees that make up a forest. These ripper folks are costing us all thousands of dollars a month. I personally don't understand why anyone would declare that it's no big deal to let them have their way, instead of taking a serious look at the problem and come up with a solution or cut the cost of supporting them to $5.00 a month or so.


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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 9:40 am 
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I don't understand how you can say that they're coming in an "having their way." It's not like they're logging into my server here at home and just downloading everything they want, when they want it. Stream rippers still can only have access to what we send them (ie: what we stream.) No rippers have direct access to our libraries.
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there really isn't any way to ward off these rippers but we can most certainly come up with ways to make it harder for them to just break into our homes, take whatever they want, and walk away fat, dumb and happy.

How are they breaking into our homes? They have the exact same access as a listener would. They aren't taking whatever they want. Stop trying to turn this into some drama that it isn't. You're trying to make it sound as though someone came into your home, broke open a safe and took your most prized toys. No one has stolen anything... you still have ALL your music and all your files. And if you're doing radio properly, no one is walking away with a clean, perfect copy of your songs.

As for hobbies... who are we to judge what's a fulfilling hobby for someone and what they choose to spend on it? My neighbor loves skydiving.... she goes at least a couple times a month and pays thru the nose for it. I know stamp collectors that will pay hundreds for rare, unique stamps... I enjoy webcasting... and spend a good chunk of change monthly to do so. So who's the more foolish?

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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 9:55 am 
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Come on now Andrew, I never said anyone was "foolish", nor did I intend to imply that somehow anyone was taking something from the server. My point was/is that there are actual costs associated with taking a lackadasical attitude toward these rippers. I stated that if you can afford that expense fine, if you are like me and would prefer to spend the money in other ways, fine - BUT we are still talking about the fact that there is an expense here no matter how you look at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 10:46 am 
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Pete wrote:
I'm really shocked to read that you are so willing to take hard earned money directly out of your own back pocket and just throw it to the wind and call it a hobby and in the same breath declare you can't seem to make a profit. I wish I was so financially well off, I'd probably stand on a balcony somewhere and flip the money to people below...An example of what most of us smaller stations probably experience is let's say we have a 100 slot allocation at our streaming server and are paying $150.00 per month for that service.
Dude, this is a way cheaper hobby than golf. I pay $23/month for 100 slots, and they give me a free boost to a higher level whenever Windows Media Radio makes me a Top Stations - Editor's Pick.


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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 11:52 am 
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My Sincere apologies to anyone who has taken my comments out of context and to those reading this as it seems to have degraded to something way out of the subject matter which originally was "For those that are trying to keep the stream ripper folks at bay by blocking them by media player"...
Is it possible to get back on subject and talk about solutions?


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 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 12:15 pm 
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Pete.... like I said and has been said time and time again.... if someone is dead set on ripping your stream, they'll do it. I could very easily bring up your station on my production machine using something as simple as WinAmp and hit RECORD on COOL EDIT, and ta-dah, I'm ripping your stream. Now tell me, HOW are you going to stop me? You're not. But what you CAN do in order to keep me, or any other stream ripper from visiting your stream is program your station properly. Talk up intros/outros. Play sweepers/liners/IDs over the intros of songs. Cross fade your songs. ALSO, you can use the 'TitleStreamBanner.PAL' that comes with SAM as well. This will automatically at set intervals change the metadata that is sent out via your encoders and will "display" something in the media player that is listening (if it's configured to do so.) Most automated stream ripper software is designed to start the NEXT track recording when the metadata changes. If you change that about every 15 seconds, automated stream rippers would get only pieces of songs.
Another option would be to only allow registered users to your site access to your streams. (ie: if you're using SHOUTCast, don't make the streams public.) But in this case, no one can just "find" your radio station while surfing, less chance of accidental listeners become regular listeners.
There are certainly some methods out there to curb these guys.... but as long as there are methods to stop them, someone will find ways around your methods.

And oh... I've have hobbies MUCH more expensive than this.... didn't make a penny off of those either. Maybe you own a nice car, or a decent house.... maybe you have a pool.... maybe you have a great entertainment center in your home... the point being, whatever you're spoiled yourself with in life, you've done so because it pleases you and it's something you enjoy. Same goes for hobby webcasters. I've never had a mega-huge crowd listening to my stream, but I don't mind. There are literally THOUSANDS of stations out there. I've got my little piece of that, and a handful of fun, loyal listeners.... not to mention a handful of loyal and fun volunteers who work with me. It doesn't matter if we have 10 listeners, or 2,010 listeners. I get to share what I love/enjoy with others, and it makes me happy. That's what hobbies are all about, regardless of how much one wants to put into it financially and in time spent. I have a full time programming/management job at a 3 FM station cluster here in town, and I put in at least 60-70 hours a week there. Still, in my free time at home, mainly on weekends I devote some time to my webcast.

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WE DANCE AS ONE: A Celebration In Groove
All That Is GOOD In Dance Music from the
70's, 80's, 90's and Now... plus some of the
best DJs from around the world.
http://www.wda1.com


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