Skip to Content
It is currently December 8th, 2019, 4:14 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 73 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 1:44 pm 
Offline
Experienced User
Experienced User

Joined: January 6th, 2010, 3:35 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Las Vegas & Tokyo, Japan
Andrew, as my favorite Sensei here since day one for me, I have listened to and learned a lot from your recommendations and comments. Please don't assume with this ripper situation that I have not configured my little station with all the ways you are mentioning, I have done that plus... Only thing not done is to take the station private because, at this point, if I did that I'd be sitting here being the only one ever listening. Perhaps I have not clearly enough stated my purpose in trying to discuss this issue. I am well aware that there is no way to avoid the problem, I've played around with a lot of the ripping software that's out there to see how it works and know very well that you can connect to hundreds of stations and pull music from all of them at the same time. In my situation this project is a hobby just like a lot of others. It's my amaturish attempt to make my station as professional as I possibly can. It's a personal irritant to have these rippers hanging around 24/7 and although I have taken all sorts of steps, including everything you've always mentioned, I thought there may be possible other solutions as well. I would much prefer to have people listening instead of software taking up slots on the streaming server away from other potential listeners. Whether this is a hobby or not really doesn't/shouldn't have anything to do with this situation. I wish I had the time to do like Sandy at smoothjazz.com, put voice over with station ID, song info and other promo info on practically every song, and I know her station is probably ripped more than any other out there. I refuse to believe that where there is a problem it's acceptable to just sit back and do nothing more instead of looking at and finding continuing solutions to changing situations.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 2:01 pm 
Offline
Alumni
Alumni

Joined: December 20th, 2006, 9:23 pm
Posts: 12211
Location: Show Low, AZ
Pete wrote:
I refuse to believe that where there is a problem it's acceptable to just sit back and do nothing more instead of looking at and finding continuing solutions to changing situations.

Which is absolutely fine.... great to see a go-get'er wanting to do something. What other great ideas do you have? I've been at this a while, and have tried all the basic mechanical ideas out there. In lieu of those, I program my station to that if someone IS ripping, then they're not going to get a good, solid, clean copy.
Quote:
I wish I had the time to do like Sandy at smoothjazz.com, put voice over with station ID, song info and other promo info on practically every song,

Perhaps this is where you need to concentrate your efforts? No one ever said running a radio station, even a simple webcast, was going to involve small amounts of time, effort and work. At least with my station, there is no "finish line" I'm trying to get to. This is an ever-lasting, on-going project. It would never hurt to start working on a project like this and just finish it when you finish it.
You will only get out of this what you put into it. If putting a voiceover station ID on almost every song would help deter rippers, why would you rule out doing it just because you don't have the time? We'd all like a quick & easy solution to this. While there is no "magic bullet" that works for everyone, there are plenty of ideas we've discussed so far here. If you've got something new, by all means pass it along.

_________________
Andrew Cannon
(SVS) Spacial Volunteer Support

WE DANCE AS ONE: A Celebration In Groove
All That Is GOOD In Dance Music from the
70's, 80's, 90's and Now... plus some of the
best DJs from around the world.
http://www.wda1.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 8:03 pm 
Offline
Experienced User
Experienced User

Joined: January 6th, 2010, 3:35 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Las Vegas & Tokyo, Japan
Andrew, my first post on this subject was about noticing a sudden change in the way the ripper folks had suddenly begun to mask their software as legit latest releases of media players, thus making it pretty difficult, if not impossible, for those trying to twart them by type of media player, nothing more, nothing less. Don't understand why you feel the need to say that if I have answers to this to speak up. If I had answers or other ideas I would most certainly have posted them in my first post. My lack of answers or ideas does not change the fact that I noticed and reported that the ripper folks have changed their software programs. I thought that it might be interesting to discuss if there might not be some NEW way to twart them. The problem is NOT ONLY with if they get a clean copy of a song or not, but also slot allocations on servers as well. Some folks can only afford 10 or 20 slots - why have them all taken up with rippers? When I was what we both call our "real dj" era I remember the studio getting so hot because of all the tubes in the console. Look at all the SOLUTIONS since then, now you don't even need a CD player as everything comes from a central server.
At the beginning of this discussion I was never talking about new solutions to old problems, but looking at the possibility of doing something about the NEW.
Again, you insult my inteligence stating that I should concentrate my efforts by spending more time on the station and that obviously I'm not aware that this takes more than small amounts of time to do it properly. If you consider already putting up enough music that won't repeat for 3 months, updating all missing ID tag info on files I've had for years, weeding out any songs that don't have the right sound for the theme of the station, reading everything being discussed here and on other forums in hope of learning something new or a way to improve what I've already done, adding an average of 40 - 50 new CDs per week, working on a box of over 300 CDs that I just got from Japan, and trying to get back to writing more of the website so I can get rid of the thing I threw up temporarily in January when I started, remembering that the music is just the wrapper for the candy and preparing other content and ways and means for my listeners to be able to interact with each other and discuss the history of this music, it's influences on culture and the contributions that the various generations of musicians/artists have made and what these generations past have gone through to bring us this music as not putting enough time and effort to making the best possible product I can, then I'll have to say you're right, I do need to pay more attention to what I'm doing.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 8:55 pm 
Offline
Alumni
Alumni

Joined: December 20th, 2006, 9:23 pm
Posts: 12211
Location: Show Low, AZ
Quote:
I thought that it might be interesting to discuss if there might not be some NEW way to twart them.

Which is EXACTLY the reason I asked what you suggested. I'd love to have new ideas to get rid of them, but I've tried everything short of making my streams private, which I'll not do.
I understand that you want to get rid of them.... we ALL do. We've ALL had to deal with them for years. I've just accepted the fact that there will always be stream rippers. (Just as I accept the fact that as soon as I buy something at my regular grocery store, it'll go on sale the next week or across town.)
Quote:
Some folks can only afford 10 or 20 slots - why have them all taken up with rippers?

And this has what do do with it? If that's all you can afford, then that's all you can afford. Know that there will be stream rippers out there and do what you can to thwart them. If you only have 10-20 slots, then you should be keeping a close eye on things.

Look, I'm not trying to insult anyone here, especially you. My point is, there are some things that will always be there.... stream rippers being one of them. As soon as a mechanical means is invented to block them, then they will come up with a mechanical means to get around them. The same goes for computer virus inventors. As soon as we find a way to catch them, they come up with a way in again. I just don't see need to be spending the time and energy fighting something that really isn't THAT devastating to our broadcasts, when we can focus that energy on programming our stations better, and doing what we need to do from a PROGRAMMING aspect to thwart them. Just like in the 80s, there were always people out there recording what was played on the radio, we will always have rippers. But as I said, the community is always looking for new ideas, regardless of how well, or how long they work. Got something to share? Please do. Trust me... you don't need to complain about stream rippers.... you're preaching to the choir on that one. There have been numerous threads here on the forum over the last several years about the options we have right now. Try those. Not happy with those? Find something new and share it.

_________________
Andrew Cannon
(SVS) Spacial Volunteer Support

WE DANCE AS ONE: A Celebration In Groove
All That Is GOOD In Dance Music from the
70's, 80's, 90's and Now... plus some of the
best DJs from around the world.
http://www.wda1.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 10:06 pm 
Offline
Experienced User
Experienced User

Joined: January 6th, 2010, 3:35 pm
Posts: 295
Location: Las Vegas & Tokyo, Japan
WDA1 wrote:
Try those. Not happy with those? Find something new and share it.

Please forgive me sir, for thinking that was what we were about to try to do..


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 19th, 2010, 11:36 pm 
Offline
Alumni
Alumni

Joined: December 20th, 2006, 9:23 pm
Posts: 12211
Location: Show Low, AZ
Pete wrote:
Please forgive me sir, for thinking that was what we were about to try to do..

So what did you have in mind?

_________________
Andrew Cannon
(SVS) Spacial Volunteer Support

WE DANCE AS ONE: A Celebration In Groove
All That Is GOOD In Dance Music from the
70's, 80's, 90's and Now... plus some of the
best DJs from around the world.
http://www.wda1.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: May 29th, 2013, 3:45 pm 
Offline
Senior User
Senior User

Joined: August 25th, 2012, 1:48 pm
Posts: 88
:(

I am looking for someone who has experience with identifying stream rippers, I know we can't stop them but am currently implementing deterrents like I just implemented the timebanner pal script, seems to work, set it to do something every 3 minutes. I read somewhere about a r.i.p function thing but couldn't find it anywhere anymore, something that would automatically ban certain agents.

Anyway, is it correct that anyone showing up with a Lavf52.111 player is automatically ripping or possibly rebroadcasting my stream ? I see the following pattern (see below) a lot, a connection opens with a NSPlayer, closes same IP re-connect with lavg52.111 ? I can't ban everyone but if it was 100% sure then I can do a few. Those ones don't necessarily stay on for hours on end. I also read that most "German" listeners are not listeners they are in fact rippers :roll: , and am waiting for my German long standing listener to come back to check him out :mrgreen: . I found a list of ripping agents somewhere so I can do some compare. But I would like to know about the pattern below though. The pain with Shoutcast the life of the trail log file is about 40 minutes, so by the time it's flushed I can't tell what current users are connected with, it's crap we can't manage stuff more on Shoutcast.

The thing is it seems many listeners are coming with this player and on my 32kbps stream too, thought that was odd. I think ALL my listeners are in fact rippers.

Another question, what is their pattern, do they normally come back for more ripping or do they move on, cos I can see that some of them are in fact returning...I know they luuuuuurrrrrrvvvvv me :D

Anyway now am adding bear growls and mooh noises from time to time, that should send them away :lol: They are taking connections and I have a limited number and won't pay for more for them so genuine listeners may lose out one day.

Example:

<05/29/13@16:05:35> [dest: 76.70.77.210] starting stream (UID: 30392)[L: 3]{A: NSPlayer/10.0.0.3702 WMFSDK/10.0}(P: 0)
<05/29/13@16:05:35> [dest: 76.70.77.210] connection closed (0 seconds) (UID: 30392)[L: 2]{Bytes: 71769}(P: 0)
<05/29/13@16:05:36> [dest: 76.70.77.210] starting stream (UID: 30393)[L: 3]{A: Lavf52.111.0}(P: 0)
<05/29/13@16:05:54> [dest: 76.70.77.210] connection closed (18 seconds) (UID: 30393)[L: 2]{Bytes: 329174}(P: 0)

I don't think I have recognised any other players yet, some are unclear


I appreciate the help...and some people need to get a life


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: May 29th, 2013, 4:49 pm 
Offline
SVS Member
SVS Member

Joined: December 6th, 2004, 9:00 am
Posts: 7888
Location: Aachen (Germany)
MadNats wrote:
Anyway, is it correct that anyone showing up with a Lavf52.111 player is automatically ripping or possibly rebroadcasting my stream ?


Lavf52 is a codec like MP3 (it's strengths are a small filesize per time, but the quality is way inferior).
The user agent hints at the mencoder tool, which is the encoder/transcoder part of the open source mediaplayer MPlayer.
As far as I know (as in I can't guarantee that I'm right, but the chances are good) that is also the only tool using that useragent and that tool has no other purpose than streamripping/rebroadcasting.

_________________
Benedikt Bauer - SVS (Spacial Volunteer Support)

We're offering custom PAL / PHP code and general SAM assistance at palscripts.com

My Project:
Send "Now Playing" from SAM to Twitter and/or Facebook | Sourcecode


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: May 29th, 2013, 10:28 pm 
Offline
Senior User
Senior User

Joined: August 25th, 2012, 1:48 pm
Posts: 88
Thanks for that... maybe I'll ban a couple to start with... to be honest my radio was never about having a high number of listeners and I'd rather none than showing I have x numbers and 90% are fake....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: May 29th, 2013, 11:19 pm 
Offline
Senior User
Senior User

Joined: August 25th, 2012, 1:48 pm
Posts: 88
errrr are you ready for a laugh? Am on the train sitting listening to my radio and banning away all lavf52.111 players and guess what? my music stops, i look at the log file and yeah my address tries to reconnect but it's banned *lmao* . Tunein app shows as lavf52 and presents exactly the symptoms above. So unbanned everyone, there is no way i can ban any of those, this is too funny so maybe i don't have as many rippers i thought and this makes sense because i use the tunein pal script and i believe as a result gained Tunein listeners. To bear in mind Tunein has a recording feature - i even rip my own station some nights for car trips across the border when no data *lol*

This was freaking priceless


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: May 30th, 2013, 6:19 am 
Offline
SVS Member
SVS Member

Joined: December 6th, 2004, 9:00 am
Posts: 7888
Location: Aachen (Germany)
Why on earth would they convert stuff with such an inferior Codec? And why on earth would a professional software maker not identify their software with a reasonable name?
I mean it's as easy as entering a custom name in the commandline parameters of their stream converter tool.
It makes sense for such mobile apps to convert all incoming streams to a single common mobile friendly format regardless of the original stream format.

_________________
Benedikt Bauer - SVS (Spacial Volunteer Support)

We're offering custom PAL / PHP code and general SAM assistance at palscripts.com

My Project:
Send "Now Playing" from SAM to Twitter and/or Facebook | Sourcecode


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: May 30th, 2013, 8:21 am 
Offline
Experienced User
Experienced User

Joined: April 12th, 2005, 6:54 pm
Posts: 330
Location: ASF Radio
MadNats wrote:
:(

I am looking for someone who has experience with identifying stream rippers, I know we can't stop them but am currently implementing deterrents like I just implemented the timebanner pal script, seems to work, set it to do something every 3 minutes. I read somewhere about a r.i.p function thing but couldn't find it anywhere anymore, something that would automatically ban certain agents....


I wrote RIP. It was discontinued a long time ago because it relied on the player agent string, which can easily be forged to appear as a legitimate player (iTunes, etc).

I no longer have a major issue with rippers. Some simple steps to make your station less attractive to them, but still appealing to real listeners, is the way to go in my opinion. Bear growls etc is probably not the way to go lol.

Most ripping software is unattended/automated. The most interesting are those that allow the user to specify in advance their favorite/most wanted tracks. When the track plays on a station, the software connects, records, then hangs up. One easy way to tell if you're the target is if you see a sudden jump in listener numbers when a certain song plays, followed by a drop when it ends.

So... what do I do to "deter" this? It's simple, really.

1) Lower the bitrate a little so the quality is still good for listeners, but not so great for keeping a track. This has the added benefit of lowering your streaming bills. 48kbps AAC+ for example.

2) Delay your Meta Data. This is the big one. Don't send Now Playing until a random number of seconds into a track. Delay 15 seconds on one track, 45 seconds on the next etc.

3) Optionally switch up Meta Data for 30 seconds in the middle of a track. Switch to "Station Name - Thanks for Listening" then switch back to the current song. This causes the software to "hang up" because it thinks it's done.

4) Crossfade to thwart software that breaks songs up by detecting silence between tracks.

None of the above spoil the experience for listeners who are legit, these steps still allow for timeshifting (which I've never had a problem with) but definitely makes the results a bit random and not good for automated individual song-grabbing software.

I don't worry any more about rippers. I've made my station unattractive to them, that's all I can do, it's working for the most part, and I can focus totally on programming for listeners these days. Good luck!

_________________
Atlantic Sound Factory


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: May 30th, 2013, 11:09 am 
Offline
Senior User
Senior User

Joined: August 25th, 2012, 1:48 pm
Posts: 88
thanks for the info but nah i won't sacrifice my tracks or sound as i created the radio for my personal needs but happy to share and am not convinced i have rippers or that many and with my crossfade and sweepers they may get a few good tracks but probably not many plus my music genres are more for the minority and and as a result that someone would search for many of my tracks is not big either i think i got paranoid for nothing. What i have a lot is the same IP making 3 connections over the 2 streams for a few seconds from Japan or far away places but those bursts don't stay connected - robots prob and i can now be sure those lavf52 connections are genuine tunein listeners as i am and they are hardly going to rip on 32

... and i always had bear growls anyway lol i was just going to add more lol but i really don't think i need to worry anymore my mind is at rest they won't come after me

thanks anyway


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: May 30th, 2013, 11:48 am 
Offline
SVS Member
SVS Member

Joined: December 28th, 2009, 12:33 pm
Posts: 1340
@dotme - RIP is still perfect for me, to kick multiple instances for listeners that accidentally use too many concurrent slots.
The one problem that I have with it is that it kicks newer instances, instead of kicking the older (listed higher in Shoutcast) instances.
Any way to somehow make that one change, and get an updated version?

_________________
Isaac Levine - Spacial Volunteer Support (SVS)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Stream Ripper Folks
PostPosted: June 8th, 2013, 9:09 am 
Offline
Senior User
Senior User

Joined: May 5th, 2004, 9:06 am
Posts: 94
Location: Tampa, FL
@dotme - I'm still using RIP and believe it or not, it still bans those using Bass listening devices. I agree with MadNats, I don't want to sacrifice my sound quality. I not only program my station, I listen to it regularly. I do what I can to stop the rippers but as it has been said ... if they wanna steal your music, they will. If someone really want to break in to your home, they will. Locks only keep the honest, honest.

_________________
I am the owner of the internet rock radio station called 106 Rock Radio. Playing active rock music. Please visit my website http://www.106radio.com
Follow the playlist on Twitter https://twitter.com/106radio


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 73 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group